Governor Pa. Josh Shapiro and Utah Governor Spencer Cox speak with moderator Savannah Guthrie at the Washington National Cathedral on Tuesday, December 9. (Screenshot)
Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro and Republican Gov. Spencer Cox of Utah are from different parties.
But the two sat down for a conversation moderated by NBC News anchor Savannah Guthrie at the Washington National Cathedral on Tuesday to discuss bias, political violence and how to engage respectfully with political opponents.
The two agreed that Americans must find a way to recognize each other’s humanity and disagree in a civilized manner. They both agreed that the stakes were high.
“We are passing all the checkpoints towards ultimately failed states and civil wars,” Cox said. “I hate to use this expression, but if we don’t course correct, this is where it’s going to lead.”
However, they were both full of hope.
“The answer to much of the darkness we see in America today is the light that ordinary Americans bring every day, often based on faith and our common humanity,” Shapiro said. “I think politicians would do well to take cues from the people we represent, listen to them more and recognize our common humanity.”
The governors began their conversation by emphasizing similarities: They are both Generation Xers, fathers of four, married high school sweethearts and are known in their home states for working across the street.
Both countries have also had to deal with some of the most high-profile acts of political violence in their states in recent years.
In April, Shapiro and his family were targeted. On the first evening of the Jewish holiday of Passover, Cody Balmer of Dauphin County hosted several Molotov cocktails at the governor’s mansion while Shapiro and his family slept inside.
He also took to the national stage last year to call for tranquil following the 2024 assassination of then-presidential candidate Donald Trump in Butler. Trump suffered minor injuries, one rallygoer and the shooter were killed, and two others were seriously injured.
In September, Cox won bipartisan praise for his response to the killing of conservative activist Charlie Kirk at an event at Utah Valley University. Cox rejected political violence on all sides, and his calls for civility contrasted sharply with the attitude of some Republican politicians who he blamed the “radical left”.“
Cox said his words were shaped by a phone call from Shapiro after the shooting.
“He told me to speak with moral clarity and speak from the heart,” Cox said. “At that moment, we were two Americans who were deeply sad and struggling.”
Their conversation touched on the roots of political violence and polarization in America. Although they did not always agree on the causes and solutions to this problem.
In discussing the role of politicians in shaping the national discourse, Shapiro focused directly on Trump.
“Here’s what we can’t allow: leaders who don’t act with moral transparency, who remain silent on some types of violence, or who let others pass because it’s insidious, that’s gasoline that adds fuel to the fire, and that leads to more violence,” Shapiro said. “When you’re a governor, when you’re president of the United States, you’re expected to have moral transparency. And now we have a president of the United States who fails that test on a daily basis.”
Shapiro pointed to Trump’s response to the June killing of former Minnesota Democratic House Speaker Melissa Hortman.
Asked after the shooting if he had called Minnesota Governor Tim Walz to discuss it, Trump said it “would be a waste of time” and called Walz “such a loser.“
A few months later, in September, a reporter asked Trump why he didn’t order flags flown at half-staff for Hortman, as he did for Kirk. Trump he said he wasn’t familiarand suggested that Walz never called him to ask.
Trump also pardoned more than 1,500 people charged or charged with participating in the Jan. 6 riot at the U.S. Capitol that sought to overturn the 2020 election results in his favor. This included 170 people accused of using deadly weaponsand several dozen who admit to assaulting police officers.
Cox acknowledged Trump’s combative political style, but said there are factors beyond the president himself that are contributing to the rise of political violence in America in recent years.
“I’m not trying to downplay his divisive rhetoric at all. I’m not going to do that,” Cox said. “But I will say this: If we think that the president of the United States or the governor is going to change the situation we’re in right now, we’re fooling ourselves. I truly believe it’s going to be up to the people of our country to change this. Our elected officials are a reflection of us.”
Cox also noted that Trump privately praised his calls for peace and bipartisanship after Kirk’s murder.
“When I was talking, when I was talking passionately about uniting our country, he called me and thanked me,” Cox said. “He said, ‘I appreciate you saying that and I liked that part.'”
When Cox discussed Trump, it was one of four points in his conversation with Shapiro that was interrupted by screams from the audience.
All three others shouted individually as Shapiro spoke, and at least one mentioned Gaza. Moderator Guthrie said disruptors would be removed.
Shapiro, the bloc’s most senior Jewish politician, has come under particular scrutiny for his views on the war between Israel and the Palestinian militant group Hamas and his participation in the suppression of protests on college campuses in Pennsylvania.
Balmer, a man sentenced to 25 to 50 years in prison after pleading guilty to firebombing the governor’s mansion on a Jewish holiday, also said he was motivated by Shapiro’s views on the conflict.
“I just want to thank the Cathedral for the amazing acoustics,” Shapiro said as one screaming spectator was removed. “I can’t hear a word of what these people are shouting about.”
The governors also discussed the role of social media in enabling bias and isolating people from those who disagree with them politically.
“These are early 21st century opioid companies,” Cox said.
Cox, whose state is suing several social media companies including Snap and Meta, argues that alleged social media products are designed to addict users, overrepresent polarizing content and trap users in ideological echo chambers.
Utah’s governor has said he supports a ban on social media utilize by children under 16, modeled after this one up-to-date law in Australia.
Shapiro, however, disagreed with this approach.
“I think the approach that we’ve tried to take in Pennsylvania under the leadership of our first lady is to make sure that digital skills are taught in our classrooms,” he said.
While he said specialty media companies should be “held accountable,” he noted that their products are addictive and vectors for disinformation.
Cox said the misunderstanding on stage could be a pattern.
“I didn’t say he was a bad person because he didn’t want to ban social media,” Cox said. “The constitution forces us to disagree within the framework that we must be able to build a coalition to pass the bill.”
Toward the end of the conversation, Cox began a discussion studies which shows that Democrats and Republicans believe that members of the other party hold extreme beliefs more often than they actually do.
Cox said this phenomenon is called a “perception gap.”
“It’s really dangerous,” Cox said. “It’s more dangerous when you put yourself in a cocoon surrounded by people who only agree with you, and then you talk about people you don’t really know… We have to find a way to be together in one room, to look into each other’s eyes, to talk. Because when we do that, it turns out that we are not as far apart as we thought.”
